atlas lathe spindle thread

has been received to confirm all costs to buyer. Unless you have a copy of Atlas Equipment Catalog No. TAKE THESE MEASUREMENTS: 1. 618 Owner Instructions & Parts Manual 0051, atlas craftsman lathe parts 12 inch reverse gear assembly no damage no wear. Atlas 6" metal lathe manual. the spindle is 1 1/2 x 8 tpi. Register diameter: 5. Craftsman / Atlas Tool Holders: LH, RH, Threading Tool, Knurling Tool and Cut-Off tool with blade. It may not display this or other websites correctly. In later catalogs these basic lathes, with the same specifications but with major changes updated in line with the fully-equipped model, were listed as Unit Plan Models 10A, 10B, 10C, 10D and 10E. JavaScript is disabled. Most threads between 4 and 96 t.p.i. MT2 collets were used by Atlas and sold with the milling attachment. The sliding sleeve, together with its engagement "dogs", is clearly visible. The mix used to produce ZAMAK has always varied to suit a particular application - for example, ZAMAK 5 consists of 4% Aluminium, 1% Copper, 0.05% Magnesium with the rest Zinc - and it is known that Atlas choose to use one of the more durable varieties - even though, due to the higher casting temperatures needed, die life was shortened and costs increased. All of the Atlas badged 6" lathes made had 1"-10 spindle noses (the existence of a 618 with 1"-8 nose is Internet disinformation). It had the face plate attached to it when i bought it. Thank you! After the introduction of the very successful Model F in 1937 (the "F" was a proper catalog listing) no significant changes were made until the arrival, in 1947, of the quick-change screwcutting gearbox versions QC42 and QC54 and an increase in the thickness of the bed ways to 1/2". Spare parts include extra spindle, motor, tail stock, gears, extra threading gears, saddle parts and pcs, different sliding attachments-not sure what they are for and a. There are also MT2 to ER20 and ER25 collet adaptors available that use the same drawbar. 2 form, until 1980. 024444 ordered by the Acorn Machine Tool Company. My feedback is 100% and I aim to keep it that way by WORKING WITH YOU towards a positive purchase. Digits after the letter/s indicated the length of the bed, but not the capacity between centres; thus, "TV-48" would have been a vertical-countershaft machine with taper-roller bearings and a 48-inch long bed; the bed lengths of 36", 42", 48" and 54" gave between-centres capacities of: 18", 24", 30" and 36" respectively. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS JUST ASK. 2 Morse-taper centre, the tailstock was only a No. CVC boomed via final yr, main TechCrunch to interview a number of CVC. When a screwcutting section was added to the handbook - strangely it was missing from the first edition of 1937 though space was provided for it to be added - the bulk of the publication consisted of charts showing how to arrange not only for pitches and feeds but also ways of setting up a vast number wire-winding options. Spindle Accuracy. Atlas Lathe 1-1/2 x eight Spindle Thread Protector. When both groups of lathes were available new, say in 1957, the 101.07301 sold for $173.50 versus $57.00 for the 109.21270, or 3:1. This tool holder is different then the ones i sold in the past. Extra Halfnut Cam. A South Bend 9" lathe spindle has a 1-1/2x8 TPI thread. Early through to late-type power cross feed apron. For sale an Atlas metal lathe with 2 chucks, steady rest and extra parts from a another lathe I stripped down. Atlas 618 -12A, 16A Metal / Armature Lathe Choose Your Parts! If you see the prefix begins with 109.xxxx, it is not an Atlas lathe. USPS have increased their prices once again. First, a thank you to all the kind people who participated in our informal survey of Threaded Spindle Data. ATLAS CRAFTSMAN 6 INCH LATHE M6-11 GEAR CASE ASSY NEW DESIGN QUALITY Bearings!! JavaScript is disabled. Styled to closely resemble its larger brother, the "10-inch", the Atlas 'Model 618' 6" x 18" (3.5" centre height) backgeared and screwcutting lathe was in production from 1936 until 1974 and then, in Mk. And leaving/receiving positive feedback at the conclusion of this auction. Multi Spindle Lathe Woodworking Lathes, Multi Spindle Lathe Metalworking Lathes, Mini-Lathe Metalworking Lathes, Craftsman Metal Lathe Metalworking Lathes, Atlas Metal Lathe Metalworking Lathes, Metal Treated . Please . Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for South Bend 10L Or Logan 11" Lathe Spindle Thread Protector 2-1/4x8tpi at the best online prices at eBay! So, please as always contact us through ebay message system with any questions or problems before going through ebay/paypal. For a bench lathe, the Atlas offered a truly vast turning capacity, while efficient American mass-production methods made the machine available at a very competitive price - and many thousands were sold worldwide. SAME DAY OR NEXT DAY SHIPPING ON THIS ITEM! www.ebay.com 4ssss said: A Buck Chuck off E bay 28 which shows the "New Small Atlas Back Geared Lathes" (6"). This was followed by a spiral wire-bound type, the wire appearing to have been of three types in one, two or three pieces - these early editions did not contain the essential screwcutting and carriage feed date, Section 7, though the chapter tab was always there but with no contents. On the few examples to make it to Europe these speeds were somewhat reduced by the 50 Hz, 1425 r.p.m. It takes a moment or two for the engagement dogs on the face of the gears to match up and slide into mesh - and sometimes they baulk badly. These are Timken bearings and the information on which are needed is sketchy. ), was fitted with a 60-hole indexing ring on the face of the backgear bullwheel and ran in Timken taper-roller bearings with part numbers: #07079 left bearing, #07100 right bearing and #07196 for the two bearing cups. Will combine shipping. As offered in standard form the vertical type was not fitted with a belt-run guard (but individual guards were fitted to the backgears) whilst the horizontal type leant itself more readily to a simple guard that covered just the front run of the headstock belt. Unfortunately, one of the drawbacks of even high-quality ZAMAK made before the late 1950s is that any contamination at the casting stage (and subsequent exposure to humidity) will shorten part life and lead, eventually, to failure. Atlas solved the problem by switching to cast iron and incorporating a stout post, cast as part of the cross slide, over which the top slide dropped. Considerably more robust than the original Series-9, this model was significantly improved in the area of the headstock where a completely redesigned casting resulted in a much stiffer structure. Our Price: $10.99. American specification motor. I was just repeating what I've read and suggesting that one should check the spindle if what I read was true. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. 3/8 SQUARE HEAD. Description Thank you for your interest. Free Cross Sell, Cross promote, eBay Marketing, eBay listing Apps, eBay Apps, eBay Application. The leadscrew was threaded 0.5" Acme and a dial-thread indicator included in the standard equipment.Although the headstock carried a No. With the Second World War a year-and-a-half old for the British (but yet to start for the Americans) this shipping ticket for the 23rd pf April, 1941 lists a 36-inch bed Timken taper-roller bearing equipped Atlas 10F lathe Serial No. The grade ZAMAK used in Atlas and Craftsman lathes is ZAMAK 3, a type with both low ductility and malleability and a melting point between 381 and 387 C (718 to 729 F. 0 - 3/8" MT1 JACOBS LATHE TAILSTOCK DRILL CHUCK FOR 618 6" ATLAS CRAFTSMAN LATHE. The conversion does require some machining: the dovetail on the thicker side of the slide has to be cut back for around 1/4-inch and the saddle likewise narrowed by taking little from each side of the cross-slide ways. John Ruth. PLEASE KNOW THAT I TRY TO SATISFY ANY AND ALL OF MY CUSTOMERS. IF YOU WOULD LIKE DIFFERENT PIC'S JUST ASK. Relaunch of Hobby Machinist Mentoring Program. the 1in mark with a thread. They often have bent spindles. Replacing the spindle bearings in the headstock of my Atlas 618 lathe. print now Tags Craftsman 6 change gear holder - Atlas 618 , Download: . For a country with the population of the United Stated, 30,000 or so Atlas versions would seem to be a reasonable figure, so it's entirely possible that a similar number of Craftsman versions were also sold. I ACCEPT PAYPAL AND LOCAL PICK-UP. Spindle Back Gear 10-242 for Craftsman / Atlas 101.07403 12" Lathe. the same thread in the table below. Here is . 3 Morse taper with reducing sleeve to take No. Your best source for hard to find metal lathe wipers and change gears. So neatly designed was the lathe that it must (together with details from the 10-inch) have provided inspiration for the designer of the well-known, very popular and long-lived just post-WW2 Myford ML7.Although the basic lathe remained almost unchanged during its production run the drive system underwent several alterations. Atlas H54 metal lathe | Power Tools | London | Kijiji. It bolted to the bench behind the lathe, lacked any form of motor-mounting plate and had the top of the unit (the swing-head assembly) arranged to hinge under the influence of a simple lever-operated cam - with two adjuster screws for fine setting of the countershaft-to-headstock belt tension. The plain-bearing headstock lathes, when properly set up, often give a better surface finish than the roller bearing models but, if the bearings are worn, replacement is both difficult and expensive. If your lathe is not listed, measure the spindle threads and find Catalog extra here Late-model Atlas 12-inch lathe from 1957 Atlas Utility lathes Acorn, Halifax & Sphere - copies from the UK Early Atlas 9-inch "Metalmaster" Lathes Atlas Screw-Machine (capstan) Atlas 9-inch and 10-inch Accessories with Catalog Pages Screwcutting Gearbox and Pick-O-Matic threading system Atlas Factory Atlas Catalogue Covers Restored 10-D & 10F lathesCountershafts (jack shafts) Atlas Shaper Atlas Milling Machine Atlas Drill PressesAtlas Wood Lathes Craftsman-badged versions of Atlas machine toolsHistory of the Atlas "Manual of Lathe Operation and Machinist's Tables"Atlas Lathes - The BackgroundBuilt in 6, 9, 10 and 12-inch versions, Atlas lathes were made by the Atlas Press Company, an organisation based originally in Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA. Swing over bed: 101/4" Swing over carriage: 65/8" Threading range: 4 to 240 standard, right or left-hand threadsCollet capacity: 1/2"No. MSRP: $29.95. Two decades later when they switched over to the Sears version of the 618, things must have changed. All like new in box. Past month; I000000. Thank you! View (11) Reviews. WORKS SMOOTHLY. However, one example of the lathe, Serial Number 1006, has been found with a most unusual fitting, a spindle with a 1.25" x 14 t.p.i. The box also tends to develop play, and a careful setting-up session, involving shims, has been known to pay dividends.Model numbers can be used to decode the original specification of a lathe: a "V" suffix indicated a vertical countershaft while the letter "H" showed that a horizontal drive system was used; if these letters were combined with a "T", as in TV-36, this showed taper rollers were used in the headstock. For the threads per inch, take a rule and then align e.g. Thank you. General arrangement of the original 10" Atlas (circa 1934 - 1960) headstock. Every Day new 3D Models from all over the World. The plain-bearing headstock lathes, when properly set up, often give a better surface finish than the roller-bearing models but, when worn, are very much more difficult and expensive to overhaul. Every machine has its strengths and weaknesses ( please read: 109 (AA Manufacture) lathes are pretty, and can do most any within ifs small, Some of the add-ons on this site are powered by. However, it would be nice to find a copy of Catalog No. http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/109/109a.html, http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/isnt-this-a-craftsman-109.39408/#post-338053. Finish-ground spindle, ball-thrust bearing and adjustment collars. If you don't recognise your particular Atlas model, explore all the hyper-links above for, besides different sizes of lathe, the company also produced a range of "Utility" and what were called "Unit Plan" models - some without screwcutting and with unguarded belt drives - that can be difficult to categorise. motors used there. See details Original babbit bearing headstock spindle assembly for a 10" Atlas or 12" Craftsman lathe. The spindle carried a 4-step pulley, driven by 2-step pulleys on motor and countershaft - a combination that gave a remarkably wide range of 16 speeds between approximately 54 and 3225 r.p.m. Chuck is stamped JACOBS 41BA 3/8-24 0-3/8 IN 0-10 MM CAP. SERIOUS INQUIRIES ONLY. With so many lathes sent on WW2 convoys, on wonders how many are at the bottom of the Atlantic. thread. WILL NOT WORK ON THE 3/8 WAYS MODELS. The spindle was bored through 25/32", held a 3 Morse taper centre and was provided with a useful 60 hole, plunger-locked indexing device; the tailstock was No. We make no guarantees on the accuracy of this information. Lathes with the new headstock were given the Model Type "TH" (Timken Headstock) - the roller-bearing set-up being described by the makers for: whenever the spindle speed must be exceptionally high for long intervals .. for the shop handling both wood and metal work The plain headstock, used a "babbit" or "white-metal" bearing, similar in arrangement to the plain bearings used on the crankshafts of I/C engines before the introduction of replaceable "shells". Please wait until auction has ended and invoice. The spindle nose on my Atlas is threaded for 1"-8 threads. I have just purchased an old craftsman wood lathe model #113.23800 12" lathe. You only need to do these measurements if you can't find the info anywhere else. And there is the bad example of the 101.07300 (although that must have been Sear's fault, not Atlas's). There are several examples where Atlas did refer to something as "The New " over two or more catalogs. Range of Metric Threads. look at the pictures.It has a piece that the rocker sits in. 16 spindle speeds were provided, from approximately 28 to 2072 rpm, depending on the motor used. 15 - the gaps being filled with literature for their other lines. In the latter case (to save time and avoid damaging bearings) it is almost certainly better to use an industrial link belt of the T-link type.Atlas catalogues contain a wealth of interesting data: Unfortunately, it appears that the company issued them (until 1939) numbered in chronological sequence, not by product, meaning that the first lathes sales folder was numbered No. Naw move eouneer- shaft bracket oa i slotted holes so thar countersbalt spindle is parallel with lathe spindle. The changewheel cover, now in cast aluminium (or plastic when constructed in the UK) was held fast by a spring-loaded catch and some versions, especially those intended for use in educational and training establishments, were available with complete guarding of the drive belts. PLEASE READ MY FEEDBACK AND BID WITH CONFIDENCE. add to list. If the spindle in question is on a Logan-South Bend-Atlas or similar and a 1.5 diameter 99% it is 8 thread as that size is very common on those machines. All Atlas 9-inch, 10-inch and 12-inch lathes used changewheels of 16 D.P. In this form (apart from power cross feed 10-F introduced a year later) the lathe had reached almost its final form and was to continue largely unchanged until 1957 - and the introduction of the heavily revised "12-inch" model. These lathes were coded TH-42 and TH-54 for changewheel screwcutting and QC-42 and QC-54 when fitted with a quick-change screwcutting gearbox.In the USA large numbers of both the 10-inch and 6-inch Atlas lathe were sold by Sears, Roebuck, the famous mail-order store, and badged using their "Craftsman" name. Various bed lengths were also listed, the last two digits indicating the length in inches i.e. Download: free Website: shapeways. Also relatively common is the Atlas wood lathe, this being made in several versions, some of which are shown here. Up for bid is an Atlas or Craftsman 12" commercial lathe split nut handle and scroll. Atlas Press Co. Kalamazoo, MI, U.S.A. Company Website: http://www.clausing-industrial.com/ Manufacturer Class: Wood Working Machinery & Metal Working Machinery History Products Machine Info Publication Reprints (374) Photo Index (840) Machine Registry (870) Images (52) Patents (45) Classified Ads (1) Publication Reprints Atlas / Craftsman 9-16 9, 10 & 12 Lathe Leadscrew Bearing Bracket. 0.4 - 2 mm. SHIPPING at this time to USA ONLY. These are adjustable and larger. $ 58.00. Atlas 10F Lathe - TH54 - 24 - Headstock Spindle Measurements 854 views Feb 11, 2018 Joe Hildreth 3.11K subscribers 32 Dislike Share In this episode a take a number of measurements on the. Copyright document.write((new Date()).getFullYear()); My Machine Shop. I may be falling for clap-trap but I've read that the 109 is a rather delicate lathe that is not for beginners. with a 14.5-degree pressure angle, a face width of 0.375", a bore of = 0.753 and a "double" keyway 0.1875" wide. Note the bed feet: the model immediately preceding this was without the inward splay to the castings. Here I show you the steps to making a spindle thread protector from a 1.5in x 8 nut.Music:Highlight ReelKevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creativ. THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR BUSINESS NJ RESIDENTS ARE CHARGED 7% SALES TAX. (One version takes the original #0 MT variant, the other version has a "standard" #0 MT.) A Myford 7 has a 1-1/8x12 TPI Whitworth thread. 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Sears version of the original 10 '' Atlas ( circa 1934 - 1960 ) headstock the information on are... Few examples to make it to Europe these speeds were provided, from approximately to... Centre, the last two digits indicating the length in inches i.e gear holder - Atlas 618, must! ; Craftsman lathe Parts 12 inch reverse gear assembly No damage No wear Atlas ( circa -. Find metal lathe wipers and change gears to ER20 and ER25 collet adaptors available that use the same drawbar 101.07403... Of threaded spindle Data threaded spindle Data 9 & quot ; lathe suggesting one! Was threaded 0.5 '' Acme and a dial-thread indicator included in the past '' commercial lathe split handle! Read and suggesting that one should check the spindle if what i read true. `` the new `` over two or more catalogs holder - Atlas,. Is an Atlas lathe reducing sleeve to take No or more catalogs % and aim! 15 - the gaps being filled with literature for their other lines at the bottom of the Atlantic 3D from! Craftsman 6 inch lathe M6-11 gear CASE ASSY new DESIGN QUALITY bearings! please as always us. A South Bend 9 & quot ; -8 threads repeating what i read true! Inch, take a rule and then align e.g TPI Whitworth thread commercial lathe split handle. You can & # x27 ; t find the info anywhere else assembly No damage No wear interview number! Also relatively common is the Atlas wood lathe model # 113.23800 12 & quot ;.... The 109 is a rather delicate lathe that is not an Atlas metal lathe | Power |. And scroll may be falling for clap-trap but i 've read that the is! The 101.07300 ( although that must have been Sear 's fault, not 's... Back gear 10-242 for Craftsman / Atlas 101.07403 12 '' lathe 10 & quot -8... And the information on which are shown here lathe | Power Tools | London | Kijiji in! Was without the inward splay to the Sears version of the 101.07300 ( that... Sent on WW2 convoys, on wonders how many are at the bottom of the original ''... The information on which are needed is sketchy the pictures.It has a 1-1/2x8 TPI thread see details original bearing... You only need to do these measurements if you see the prefix begins with 109.xxxx, it not... Over the World accuracy of this information lathes sent on WW2 convoys, on wonders how many are the. My CUSTOMERS 's ) ER20 and ER25 collet adaptors available that use the same drawbar to keep it that by... Information on which are shown here i have just purchased an old Craftsman wood lathe model # 113.23800 &. Aim to keep it that way by WORKING with you towards a positive.... With literature for their other lines Tags Craftsman 6 inch lathe M6-11 gear CASE ASSY new DESIGN bearings! 12 '' lathe - Atlas 618 -12A, 16A metal / Armature lathe Choose your Parts begins with 109.xxxx it! Be nice to find a copy of Atlas Equipment Catalog No the model immediately preceding this without. On WW2 convoys, on wonders how many are at the pictures.It has a 1-1/2x8 thread! And there is the Atlas wood lathe, this being made in several versions, some of which are is! However, it WOULD be nice to find a copy of Catalog No another lathe i stripped down versions! Armature lathe Choose your Parts and all of my CUSTOMERS lathe that is not for beginners of this information QUALITY... My CUSTOMERS for a better experience, please as always contact us through eBay message system with questions... Spindle if what i 've read that the 109 atlas lathe spindle thread a rather delicate that! The World '' Acme and a dial-thread indicator included in the headstock of my CUSTOMERS for Craftsman Atlas. The info anywhere else these atlas lathe spindle thread were provided, from approximately 28 to rpm... Inch lathe M6-11 gear CASE ASSY new DESIGN QUALITY bearings! details original bearing! Just repeating what i 've read and suggesting that one should check the spindle nose my., Atlas Craftsman 6 change gear holder - Atlas 618, things have! Suggesting that one should check the spindle nose on my Atlas 618 lathe many are at the conclusion this. Armature lathe Choose your Parts best source for hard to find metal lathe with 2 chucks, steady rest extra. Ebay Application 3 Morse taper with reducing sleeve to take No, 10-inch and 12-inch lathes changewheels! Via final yr, main TechCrunch to interview a number of cvc `` the new `` two!, Threading Tool, Knurling Tool and Cut-Off Tool with blade 3/8-24 0-3/8 in MM! Thar countersbalt spindle is parallel with lathe spindle kind people who participated in our informal of. Made in several versions, some of which are needed is sketchy 10 Atlas! Who participated in our informal survey of threaded spindle Data DAY new Models. 3 Morse taper with reducing sleeve to take No another lathe i stripped down is the Atlas wood lathe this., 10-inch and 12-inch lathes used changewheels of 16 D.P '' lathe No guarantees on motor! Are at the conclusion of this auction is sketchy are Timken bearings and the information on which are is. The 101.07300 ( although that must have changed although that must have changed a copy of Equipment... This Tool holder is different then the ones i sold in the standard the. 10 '' Atlas ( circa 1934 - 1960 ) headstock ( circa 1934 - 1960 ) headstock with sleeve! Ebay Application through eBay message system with any questions or problems before going through.... Is threaded for 1 & quot ; lathe spindle has a 1-1/8x12 TPI Whitworth thread main TechCrunch atlas lathe spindle thread a. With its engagement `` dogs '', is clearly visible reverse gear assembly No damage wear! Is an Atlas metal lathe wipers and change gears delicate lathe that is not for beginners 12. And 12-inch lathes used changewheels of 16 D.P information on which are is... Clap-Trap but i 've read that the rocker sits in http: //www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/109/109a.html, http: //www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/109/109a.html http! Atlas did refer to something as `` the new `` over two or more catalogs together with engagement. And the information on which are shown here a Myford 7 has a 1-1/8x12 TPI Whitworth.... As `` the new `` over two or more catalogs 10-inch and lathes... This or other websites correctly 15 - the gaps being filled with literature for their other.. Cut-Off Tool with blade ) ).getFullYear ( ) ).getFullYear ( ) ) ; my Shop. So many lathes sent on WW2 convoys, on wonders how many are at the pictures.It has a that... The bad example of the original 10 '' Atlas ( circa atlas lathe spindle thread - 1960 ).. The conclusion of this auction model # 113.23800 12 & quot ; lathe! Rh, Threading Tool, Knurling Tool and Cut-Off Tool with blade be nice to find lathe! System with any questions or problems before going through ebay/paypal browser before.! Also relatively common is the bad example of the Atlantic length in i.e. Rule and then align e.g holes so thar countersbalt spindle is parallel with spindle... | London | Kijiji splay to the Sears version of the Atlantic ) headstock -12A, 16A metal Armature! Literature for their other lines gear holder - Atlas 618 -12A, 16A /... Atlas wood lathe, this being made in several versions, some of which needed. At the conclusion of this information reverse gear assembly No damage No.. Threads per inch, take a rule and then align e.g Atlas 101.07403 12 ''.. Changewheels of 16 D.P you to all the kind people who participated in our informal of! You towards a positive purchase.getFullYear ( ) ).getFullYear ( ) ).getFullYear ( ). ( although that must have been Sear 's fault, not Atlas ). Know that i TRY to SATISFY any and all of my Atlas is threaded for &! A atlas lathe spindle thread TPI Whitworth thread the 101.07300 ( although that must have been Sear fault! To buyer Parts 12 inch reverse gear assembly No damage No wear change gears bad example the... Knurling Tool and Cut-Off Tool with blade Manual 0051, Atlas Craftsman lathe Parts inch! Bed lengths were also listed, the last two digits indicating the length inches. Then the ones i sold in the standard equipment.Although the headstock carried No. Common is the bad example of the 618, Download: WW2 convoys, on wonders how many are the. Falling for clap-trap but i 've read that the rocker sits in all Atlas 9-inch 10-inch... Threaded 0.5 '' Acme and a dial-thread indicator included in the headstock of my CUSTOMERS Tool with blade although must! 1 & quot ; Atlas or 12 & quot ; lathe spindle being! Please as always contact us through eBay message system with any questions or problems atlas lathe spindle thread going through ebay/paypal do measurements! And all of my Atlas is threaded for 1 & quot ; lathe spindle spindle on... The 50 Hz, 1425 r.p.m leadscrew was threaded 0.5 '' Acme and a dial-thread indicator included in past... The standard equipment.Although the headstock carried a No Tool with blade ER20 and collet... Its engagement `` dogs '', is clearly atlas lathe spindle thread bottom of the 10... Note the bed feet: the model immediately preceding this was without inward! Inch, take a rule and then align e.g sent on WW2 convoys, on wonders how many at...

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